Having spent the last few hours reading the comments on two pieces examining the issue of Irish language rights on a news website here in Ireland I was going to write a long and detailed response (an online poll here and a refreshingly opinionated article here). However, in all honestly, the vitriolic and discriminatory views of the Anglophone extreme, of people who claim that they hate the Irish language but actually hate the speakers of the Irish language, has depressed me beyond words. One would hope that it would be possible to have a rational and reasoned debate between the Hibernophone and Anglophone communities in Ireland but the militant minority of the latter, people who all but rejoice in the thought of the deaths of their fellow Irish citizens because those citizens speak a tongue other than English, makes me wonder if any such debate will ever be possible.
We truly live in a cultural and moral end times for the island nation that was once Ireland.
AN SIONNACH FIONN 
Never take too seriously anything that is on the web unless it is written by your good self! Social media is not the place of rational discourse and has a magnetic attraction for all sorts of irrational, marginal and downright quirky views whose main aim is to cause annoyance and offence. Fanatics of all types love the web.
The resignation of the Language Commissioner has opened up argument and discourse that is healthy. I notice that very few want amend the constitution in order to remove the national language status of Irish. Should we have a referendum? Not at all likely – that might be a more honest approach instead of the slow and steady decline of the language I love. Instead, we persist with pretence, hypocrisy and nod and wink tokenism.
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Thanks for the comment, Frank. I agree with a lot of that. Talking of referenda I proposed this some time ago: WHERE’S THE IRISH AT THE IRISH CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION?
The only genuine language revival is one where Irish is the state’s default language and English an additional language. Then let us pursue a policy of bilingualism where people are free to choose either in dealing with the state.
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Ceann de na rudaí is dóchasaí a dúirt Seán Ó Cuirreáin cúpla mí ó shin ab ea: “Níl an caiteoir dúchasach Geilge beirthe go fóill!” Agus tá sé sin fíor! Bíodh misneach againn!
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Excuse my French,Séamas, but fuck ’em! Just look them in the eye and say…we’re gonna do it anyway! There is no need to be depressed. Lean ar aghaidh!
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But when all the power is in their hands? That old maxim about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result being one definition of madness might be applicable here. Then one thinks of the revolutionary movement that the Irish language movement used to be and how far that succeeded before it got a bad case of the “respectables”. Perhaps it needs to rediscover its activist roots?
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Cuirfeadh sé Sisyphus i gcuimhne duit!
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Yes! The responses to the items in “The Journal” can be infuriating. I have been led once or twice to respond in a rational way to the uninformed opinions and mythological “facts” quoted to be responded in, to put it politely, a less than rational way. Má fheictear ar na tagartaí no na freagairtí áfach tá a méid daoine a deireann gur mhaith leo nó nár mhaith leo an freagra an-shuimiúl. In an-chuid áiteanna tá an troimlach ar thaobh na Gaeilge. Mar sin is féidir a rá an bhfuil tú i bfábhar nó i gcoinne gan bheith ag sracadh isteach sa díospóireacht!
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No, they won’t even have to wait that long.
Part of the problem with various ‘language rights’ frameworks is that they’re framed in terms of individual rights. But the essence of language is that it’s a social, communial phenomenon. Once the last Irish speaking community has gone, or even been eroded beyond recognition, then the language as a natural cultural force will be finished. Families, indiviudals, hobbists, academics will no doubt continue to learn and even sometimes speak Irish, but it will have the status of Latin or Klingon. All good fun, but no longer a cultural ‘container’ defining a people. Children will learn the home language of their parents, however odd or unusual, but they’re unlikely to ‘own’ it, or identify strongly with it, unless it’s also the natural language of their peers once they venture beyond their own front gates. So there can be no real intergenerational tranmission. You’re left with a sort of ghost of a language, an empty shell.
So you tell me, is there still time to stabilise and build out from what’s left of Gaeldom?
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If won’t be too long, Marconatrix, provided there isn’t timely, vigorous defence by publicly funded language groups when the State Ombudsman is sniperred by known Gaelophobe-dissidents – see Ian O’Doherty in today’s Irish Independent – specific url link not available to hand – http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty
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Why are you still putting your trust in the state when the state has clearly let you down badly as far as any real positive action is concerned? At least you have a consititutional situation where it would be very hard for the state to act against any private initiatives. Maybe it’s a question of bypassing the state and setting up the necessary structures in parallel. Private funding for example, if it relies on many small and medium inputs can be much more reliable than state funding, since governments will cancel a programme overnight when their political priorities shift, often due to quite unrelated matters.
Let’s at least hope that some good will come out of all this.
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I agree with you in that although the State can’t be trusted – and that in the year of centenaries where the pre-revolutionary language groups were entirely voluntrary and subscriber based – truth is the present language groups receive massive public monies and for what? – largesse *not* language; tokenism *not* ‘tír-ghrá’! Lookit, all things considered when the constitution is ignored and/or not legislated for but not enforced, this is borderline treason (as shown with two referendums in the 70s and 90s being ignored, in legislating for Seanad reform and abortion respectively) — – I can’t imagine something like this collective conspiracy of apathetic complacency between media/voters/electors and public representives/elected happening elsewhere to such an extend — it’s the friggin’ flouride! @
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Yet the Official Languages Act of 2003 was passed by the government and An Dáil not to give Irish-speakers their constitutional rights but because the government feared a Supreme Court judgement would force it to accept a far broader and more deeper “constitutional obligation” towards full bilingualism in the state. The Act was designed to curb – not enhance – the rights of Irish-speaking citizens.
That says it all really. The only time the Irish state did something positive for Hibernophones and it was with ulterior motives.
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A lot of sense in that, Marconatrix. Given the antipathy or indifference of the state to its Hibernophone communities and citizens perhaps pleading with it for recognition or support is indeed pointless? Time for a third way? Or a return to the Irish language movement’s revolutionary roots? Activism before grants.
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like irish presidential elections, a third way confuses people! – but you’re both right of course (revolutionary zeal with an anti-fluoride tonic!) — not sure about the irish supreme court being a saviour of language of rights for irish speakers as all it does is interpret law — makes me wonder why we need a written a constitution when we require legislation to back it up (does this happen in the U.S.?)
http://humanrights.ie/constitution-of-ireland/shadow-constitutional-convention-16-oconnaill-on-the-irish-language/
recent and expected publications by Verona Ní Dhrisceoil might add spark to change (can’t find papers online)
http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/language-rights-gaps-between-theory-and-practice/
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/law/people/peoplelists/person/314099
https://sussex.academia.edu/VeronaN%C3%ADDhrisceoil
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Unfortunately, by design or accident, the wording of Article 8 of the Constitution of Ireland is very poor.
“8.1: The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
8.2: The English language is recognised as a second official language.
8.3: Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
The English language is recognised as a second official language.
Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.”
8.3 is the great get-out clause for all government actions and why the 2003 Act came into being. Otherwise the Supreme Court was leaning to 8.1 as the primary constitutional duty which would have obligated the government to move to Irish alone or genuine bilingualism. 8.3 and the 2003 Act was a way of thwarting that. A constitutional sleight of hand.
Fascinating links. Will probably post a link on the blog. GRMA!
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Here’s an article linking to that odious excuse for a “columnist”.
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I pretty much agree with all of that, Marconatrix. Yes there is still time to stabilise and build. But not much time. I think we are approaching a now or never horizon in terms of Irish as a true communal language.
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