Reblogged this on Choosing the Green – Roghnú Glas and commented:
This is Scottish Independence week (one would hope). With the vote 3 days away, it’s about time someone in Britain starts talking about it as a likely possibility and viable option. The irreverent and humorous way that he did is entertaining – but here’s hoping his mockery of a plea doesn’t sway a single vote, unless it’s someone switching to vote Yes.
For some reason I’ve got a “not in your country” message for the video (I’m in the UK, while it lasts …) But having watched a fair amount of the coverage over here I can probably imagine what it’s like.
What has become apparent is that neither the UK government, nor the English population are in the least bit prepared for a possible YES vote, neither practically nor psychologically, so the fall out will probably be much greater south of the border than in Scotland. In Scotland it will just be the next step in a process that’s been going on for years, especially since the parliament was re-established about 15 years ago. The SNP have gone from opposition to coalition to minority government to majority government and in the process have shown they can run the country pretty well on the whole, but have now run up against limitations imposed by Westminster, so they’re hobbled until they get independence. So a smooth progression hopefully, unless the English start playing sillybuggers.
But for the English it may be a bolt from the blue, they just haven’t thought through the consequences. They mostly ignore Scotland and take it for granted, but its loss will really damage their overblown self esteem and their place in the world. At least their imagined status in the world, other nations probably take a more pragmatic view. It will certainly put pressure on Wales, but unless they quickly build a more inclusive independence movement and break the hold of Labour in the old industrial areas, then they’ll likely get assimilated in a more militant, angry Greater England. I can’t imagine how things will pan out for NI, I won’t even try.
Oh, and I must leave you with this link, talk about plain speaking, from a very brave lady :
I suspect the English will deal with Scottish independence the way they deal with Ireland’s: just pretend it never happened 😉
My heart says the Scots will say “Yes”. My head says they will say “No”. Despite everything the polls still favour the Union. It has certainly stirred up some debate – and excitement – over here. You might be surprised to learn how closely Irish people are now watching and discussing events in Scotland. Unfortunately the general feeling is that the Scots don’t have the “courage” to be independent.
I suspect the English/London elites will be quite nasty in the event of a “No” vote, the very opposite of what one might expect. Vindictive and gloating in victory. Expect lots of “Have I Got News For You” satire bordering on bigotry. At least a “Yes” vote would soften an establishment backlash. A “No” vote will make it all the harder.
Every Scot in London I’ve ever met has been appalled by Salmond: maybe distance gives them some perspective. One constant whine I hear is why didn’t Cameron insist on allowing Scots born in England to have avote? The other thing they seem stunned by is his decision to bring the voting age down to 16: just pure populist irresponsibility. As one person said: a seventeen yr old just off the boat from Lithuania working for six months in Mcdonalds before going home is entitled to vote on a subject which has nothing to do with them, but someone who was born and raised there and has moved a mile over the border to Berwick will have no say.
My guess for wht it’s worth is that the vote will be a lot less close than everyone thinks: people have been telling fibs to the pollsters, and I think they are gonna be embarrassed as they were with John Major’s victory in 1992 (al-Beeb was predicting a Labour victory on the very night.)
The no vote will win by a larger majority than everyone is currently panicking about. But Salmond’s spinning of economic fairy stories to the Glasgow underclass will I suspect result in a fairly ugly Friday morning. Apparently all police leave has been cancelled in Scotalnd, as they expect large scale disorder. Salmond is mountebank who has let a lot of ugly genies out of the bottle.
Yes but the animosity to Alex Salmond is largely driven by British nationalist sentiment, a reflection of what people read and see in the British media. Greater England hates those that threaten its hegemony over the island of Britain so Salmond is the bogeyman and painted blacker than black. None of the stereotypes about him reflect reality. A lot of it is borderline racist even in the most liberal British press.
As for accusations of lies the metropolitan media, and the BBC in particular, has probably thrown away all credibility in Scotland, certainly for the under-25s. Young Scots will never trust what they hear out of London again. That damage is entirely self-inflicted. I’ve followed the campaign in Scotland closely and I’ve been amazed by how often Scottish friends or ASF readers contact me to say that they feel like they have been walking around with their eyes closed for the last ten or twenty years. They see Britain/UK in a very different light now. Don’t blame the SNP for that. Blame the real nature of the Tories, Labour and LibDems and their media acolytes.
Maybe the Scots will vote “No”. However, to borrow a phrase, all is changed, changed utterly; and for the better.
Damn you, Séamas, I was saving “changed utterly” for after the vote. Well true of course but not in the way I’d imagined, still Cameron seems to be floundering so there could still be some fun to be had. So many posts on Wings, Bella, the Dug … I can’t keep up. How do you manage? And I don’t do other social media like Twitter.
Exhausted at the mo between blogging, the day job and some overdue gardening and home-repairs. However the Scottish referendum was so exciting that one couldn’t help but blog on it. I honestly found it inspiring to see so many people debate the matter for two years and generally with such courtesy and respect. And the consequences of change were enormous.
The next target is clearly the Westminster General Election in a few months time, with the aim of electing a large number of SNP MPs. That could then open the ‘Irish Route’ or they might simply hold the balance of power (not at all impossible). In the meantime the SNP seems set to have trebled it’s membership within another day or two. As the third largest party UK-wide they ought to be able to claim much more exposure on the ‘official’ media. Indeed the referendum looks like being a classic Pyrrhic victory for the Union, i.e. “One more victory like that and we’re done for”. Since Westminster elections are FPTP the consensus seems to be for everyone to get behind the SNP as the largest and best organised grouping, a new party, Yes alliance or whatever wouldn’t stand much of a chance, and small parties would of course get nowhere. Another indicator, the SNP’s popularity at Holyrood is now actually higher than when the present Scottish government was elected with a landslide. Needless to say that’s quite unusual.
If Cameron outmanoeuvres Miliband and secures English votes for English laws in Westminster he may well have hamstrung any future Labour governments as well as gaining electoral popularity in England itself for the Conservatives. There are already reports that the Tories have cooled their overtures to the Unionist parties in the north-east of Ireland. Up to now there was a tacit understanding that the Tories would seek the support of DUP, UUP and TUV MPs in the event of a hung-parliament. Not to mention any UKIPs that managed to scrape in. That may be on the long finger for now,
I have an awful feeling that the Scots will continue to by-pass the SNP for Westminster elections though that could be just post-referendum pessimism. Holyrood will probably be different though there seems little appetite left in the SNP leadership for a period of “neverendums”. The most that seems possible is “devo-max” though even that is debatable since no one ever gave it a comprehensive definition (and purposefully so). Devo-max can mean whatever one wants it to mean. The London parties will offer the least while calling it the most.
why didn’t Cameron insist on allowing Scots born in England to have avote
—————–
And how are you going to tell them apart from the English?
By their accent?
No one can choose where they’re born, only where they decide to make their home. It’s surely unjust to discriminate against someone for factors beyond their control. You can change you language (given a bit of time), your religion etc. but not your skin colour, your parents or place of birth.
Exactly. The vote in Scotland is open to voters resident and registered in Scotland and Scottish constituencies. Scotland is the voting unit since it is an act of national self-determination. Arguing on a vote open to Scots resident outside Scotland or to British voters as whole is simply a mechanism to (further) undermine a pro-independence vote.
When the people of the island of Ireland voted for independence in 1918, 1920 and 1921 (three de facto referendums) the British of course rejected those votes and instead partitioned the country to create a pro-British voting unit in the north-east. Democracy and the British rarely goes together.
Fourth time: the people of the Island of Ireland did not vote for independence in 1918. Half of em didn’t bother their arses to vote at all, and of the 52% who did, 25% voted Unionist, and 23% voted for the Home Rule Party.
Fifth time: the estimated vote for Sinn Féin in 1918 (taking account of uncontested seats) was 75%-80% of the ballot. Similar figures were recorded in the local election of 1920 and the general election of 1921. If the SNP could achieve up to 80% of the vote at Holyrood I don’t think anyone would be contesting its legitimacy. You are clutching at statistical straws, John.
We had three de facto plebiscites on independence in 1918, 1920 and 1921 and the majority vote was for a free and sovereign all-Ireland republic. Four years, three votes and pro-independence majorities each time. And that in the middle of a revolution where voters were attacked, bullied, intimidated, murdered and those being elected were in prison, on the run or leading a revolutionary government.
Scotland 2014 they were not. They were greater than that.
a seventeen yr old just off the boat from Lithuania working for six months in Mcdonalds before going home is entitled to vote
—————–
Does the UK allow non-citizens to vote in non-local elections and referendums?
great video Séamas, very entertaining Pity about the end!
Personally speaking i have always supported a YES vote – i really,really hope the Scots pull through despite the mass media onslaught of the past few days.
The Québecois apparently caved into it at their referendum and advised not paying any attention to it, last minute promises of everything you ever wanted in devo-Max or polls.
We’ll soon see how things go
i spoke to some english colleagues at work today – very nice people – was surprised by their animosity towards the possibility of a YES vote.
Expect England will be rather vindictive if No wins (no surprise there says any irish person) –
which may create more problems ( no surprise there says . . . ..).
whatever way the referendum goes it will not be the end of the issue!
There’s a coincidence. I was talking to an English colleague yesterday, an extremely laid back, temper-free non-political person resident in Ireland for many years when the issue of Scotland came up (actually in relation to that muppet Bob Geldof). To say that he became agitated is to put in mildly. Now I know what Israelis mean when they talk about an “existential” crisis after witnessing someone experiencing it first-hand myself. I’n not sure the British/English could cope with a “Yes” vote.
AN SIONNACH FIONN 
Reblogged this on Choosing the Green – Roghnú Glas and commented:
This is Scottish Independence week (one would hope). With the vote 3 days away, it’s about time someone in Britain starts talking about it as a likely possibility and viable option. The irreverent and humorous way that he did is entertaining – but here’s hoping his mockery of a plea doesn’t sway a single vote, unless it’s someone switching to vote Yes.
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I thought it good natured and actually pro-Scottish. Loved the unicorn, get one free with every indy vote (Hey, I just smiled 🙂 )
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I love how optimistic unicorns make me feel….”I’m alive, I’m aliiiiive”
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HAHAHA! 😉
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For some reason I’ve got a “not in your country” message for the video (I’m in the UK, while it lasts …) But having watched a fair amount of the coverage over here I can probably imagine what it’s like.
What has become apparent is that neither the UK government, nor the English population are in the least bit prepared for a possible YES vote, neither practically nor psychologically, so the fall out will probably be much greater south of the border than in Scotland. In Scotland it will just be the next step in a process that’s been going on for years, especially since the parliament was re-established about 15 years ago. The SNP have gone from opposition to coalition to minority government to majority government and in the process have shown they can run the country pretty well on the whole, but have now run up against limitations imposed by Westminster, so they’re hobbled until they get independence. So a smooth progression hopefully, unless the English start playing sillybuggers.
But for the English it may be a bolt from the blue, they just haven’t thought through the consequences. They mostly ignore Scotland and take it for granted, but its loss will really damage their overblown self esteem and their place in the world. At least their imagined status in the world, other nations probably take a more pragmatic view. It will certainly put pressure on Wales, but unless they quickly build a more inclusive independence movement and break the hold of Labour in the old industrial areas, then they’ll likely get assimilated in a more militant, angry Greater England. I can’t imagine how things will pan out for NI, I won’t even try.
Oh, and I must leave you with this link, talk about plain speaking, from a very brave lady :
(If it still works)
LikeLike
I suspect the English will deal with Scottish independence the way they deal with Ireland’s: just pretend it never happened 😉
My heart says the Scots will say “Yes”. My head says they will say “No”. Despite everything the polls still favour the Union. It has certainly stirred up some debate – and excitement – over here. You might be surprised to learn how closely Irish people are now watching and discussing events in Scotland. Unfortunately the general feeling is that the Scots don’t have the “courage” to be independent.
I suspect the English/London elites will be quite nasty in the event of a “No” vote, the very opposite of what one might expect. Vindictive and gloating in victory. Expect lots of “Have I Got News For You” satire bordering on bigotry. At least a “Yes” vote would soften an establishment backlash. A “No” vote will make it all the harder.
Try this link.
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Every Scot in London I’ve ever met has been appalled by Salmond: maybe distance gives them some perspective. One constant whine I hear is why didn’t Cameron insist on allowing Scots born in England to have avote? The other thing they seem stunned by is his decision to bring the voting age down to 16: just pure populist irresponsibility. As one person said: a seventeen yr old just off the boat from Lithuania working for six months in Mcdonalds before going home is entitled to vote on a subject which has nothing to do with them, but someone who was born and raised there and has moved a mile over the border to Berwick will have no say.
My guess for wht it’s worth is that the vote will be a lot less close than everyone thinks: people have been telling fibs to the pollsters, and I think they are gonna be embarrassed as they were with John Major’s victory in 1992 (al-Beeb was predicting a Labour victory on the very night.)
The no vote will win by a larger majority than everyone is currently panicking about. But Salmond’s spinning of economic fairy stories to the Glasgow underclass will I suspect result in a fairly ugly Friday morning. Apparently all police leave has been cancelled in Scotalnd, as they expect large scale disorder. Salmond is mountebank who has let a lot of ugly genies out of the bottle.
LikeLike
Yes but the animosity to Alex Salmond is largely driven by British nationalist sentiment, a reflection of what people read and see in the British media. Greater England hates those that threaten its hegemony over the island of Britain so Salmond is the bogeyman and painted blacker than black. None of the stereotypes about him reflect reality. A lot of it is borderline racist even in the most liberal British press.
As for accusations of lies the metropolitan media, and the BBC in particular, has probably thrown away all credibility in Scotland, certainly for the under-25s. Young Scots will never trust what they hear out of London again. That damage is entirely self-inflicted. I’ve followed the campaign in Scotland closely and I’ve been amazed by how often Scottish friends or ASF readers contact me to say that they feel like they have been walking around with their eyes closed for the last ten or twenty years. They see Britain/UK in a very different light now. Don’t blame the SNP for that. Blame the real nature of the Tories, Labour and LibDems and their media acolytes.
Maybe the Scots will vote “No”. However, to borrow a phrase, all is changed, changed utterly; and for the better.
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Damn you, Séamas, I was saving “changed utterly” for after the vote. Well true of course but not in the way I’d imagined, still Cameron seems to be floundering so there could still be some fun to be had. So many posts on Wings, Bella, the Dug … I can’t keep up. How do you manage? And I don’t do other social media like Twitter.
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Sorry about that 😉
Exhausted at the mo between blogging, the day job and some overdue gardening and home-repairs. However the Scottish referendum was so exciting that one couldn’t help but blog on it. I honestly found it inspiring to see so many people debate the matter for two years and generally with such courtesy and respect. And the consequences of change were enormous.
Oh well, maybe next time. Salmond is suggesting a different route, the “Irish option” as it were. Something I put forward a good while ago.
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The next target is clearly the Westminster General Election in a few months time, with the aim of electing a large number of SNP MPs. That could then open the ‘Irish Route’ or they might simply hold the balance of power (not at all impossible). In the meantime the SNP seems set to have trebled it’s membership within another day or two. As the third largest party UK-wide they ought to be able to claim much more exposure on the ‘official’ media. Indeed the referendum looks like being a classic Pyrrhic victory for the Union, i.e. “One more victory like that and we’re done for”. Since Westminster elections are FPTP the consensus seems to be for everyone to get behind the SNP as the largest and best organised grouping, a new party, Yes alliance or whatever wouldn’t stand much of a chance, and small parties would of course get nowhere. Another indicator, the SNP’s popularity at Holyrood is now actually higher than when the present Scottish government was elected with a landslide. Needless to say that’s quite unusual.
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If Cameron outmanoeuvres Miliband and secures English votes for English laws in Westminster he may well have hamstrung any future Labour governments as well as gaining electoral popularity in England itself for the Conservatives. There are already reports that the Tories have cooled their overtures to the Unionist parties in the north-east of Ireland. Up to now there was a tacit understanding that the Tories would seek the support of DUP, UUP and TUV MPs in the event of a hung-parliament. Not to mention any UKIPs that managed to scrape in. That may be on the long finger for now,
I have an awful feeling that the Scots will continue to by-pass the SNP for Westminster elections though that could be just post-referendum pessimism. Holyrood will probably be different though there seems little appetite left in the SNP leadership for a period of “neverendums”. The most that seems possible is “devo-max” though even that is debatable since no one ever gave it a comprehensive definition (and purposefully so). Devo-max can mean whatever one wants it to mean. The London parties will offer the least while calling it the most.
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why didn’t Cameron insist on allowing Scots born in England to have avote
—————–
And how are you going to tell them apart from the English?
By their accent?
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I meant Scots-born living in England.
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No one can choose where they’re born, only where they decide to make their home. It’s surely unjust to discriminate against someone for factors beyond their control. You can change you language (given a bit of time), your religion etc. but not your skin colour, your parents or place of birth.
LikeLike
Exactly. The vote in Scotland is open to voters resident and registered in Scotland and Scottish constituencies. Scotland is the voting unit since it is an act of national self-determination. Arguing on a vote open to Scots resident outside Scotland or to British voters as whole is simply a mechanism to (further) undermine a pro-independence vote.
When the people of the island of Ireland voted for independence in 1918, 1920 and 1921 (three de facto referendums) the British of course rejected those votes and instead partitioned the country to create a pro-British voting unit in the north-east. Democracy and the British rarely goes together.
LikeLike
Fourth time: the people of the Island of Ireland did not vote for independence in 1918. Half of em didn’t bother their arses to vote at all, and of the 52% who did, 25% voted Unionist, and 23% voted for the Home Rule Party.
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I didn’t know that. So we really didn’t do too badly the other day then?
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Fifth time: the estimated vote for Sinn Féin in 1918 (taking account of uncontested seats) was 75%-80% of the ballot. Similar figures were recorded in the local election of 1920 and the general election of 1921. If the SNP could achieve up to 80% of the vote at Holyrood I don’t think anyone would be contesting its legitimacy. You are clutching at statistical straws, John.
We had three de facto plebiscites on independence in 1918, 1920 and 1921 and the majority vote was for a free and sovereign all-Ireland republic. Four years, three votes and pro-independence majorities each time. And that in the middle of a revolution where voters were attacked, bullied, intimidated, murdered and those being elected were in prison, on the run or leading a revolutionary government.
Scotland 2014 they were not. They were greater than that.
LikeLike
a seventeen yr old just off the boat from Lithuania working for six months in Mcdonalds before going home is entitled to vote
—————–
Does the UK allow non-citizens to vote in non-local elections and referendums?
LikeLike
great video Séamas, very entertaining Pity about the end!
Personally speaking i have always supported a YES vote – i really,really hope the Scots pull through despite the mass media onslaught of the past few days.
The Québecois apparently caved into it at their referendum and advised not paying any attention to it, last minute promises of everything you ever wanted in devo-Max or polls.
We’ll soon see how things go
i spoke to some english colleagues at work today – very nice people – was surprised by their animosity towards the possibility of a YES vote.
Expect England will be rather vindictive if No wins (no surprise there says any irish person) –
which may create more problems ( no surprise there says . . . ..).
whatever way the referendum goes it will not be the end of the issue!
LikeLike
There’s a coincidence. I was talking to an English colleague yesterday, an extremely laid back, temper-free non-political person resident in Ireland for many years when the issue of Scotland came up (actually in relation to that muppet Bob Geldof). To say that he became agitated is to put in mildly. Now I know what Israelis mean when they talk about an “existential” crisis after witnessing someone experiencing it first-hand myself. I’n not sure the British/English could cope with a “Yes” vote.
LikeLike